Tags
America's Crumbling Infrastructure, Capitalism, Climate Change, Collapse of Industrial Civilization, Eco-Apocalypse, Ecocide, Ecological Overshoot, Economic Collapse, Environmental Collapse, EROEI, Infinite Growth Paradigm, Mass Die Off, Natural Gas Bubble, Resource Wars, Roger Blanchard Ph.D., Thermal Equilibrium Between Oceans and Atmosphere, Thermal Inertia of the Oceans, unwashed public
At the end of this post is a paper being worked on by Roger Blanchard Ph.D.[rblanchard@LSSU.edu]. He is a chemistry instructor at Lake Superior State University as well as author of several books, among them ‘The Future of Global Oil Production‘. This paper, which I assume is still in progress, is important for several reasons, one of which is the discussion on the lag time of CO2 and methane (CH4) greenhouse effects in the atmosphere as well as thermal inertia which, in this case, refers to the slow rate at which the stored heat in the ocean is transferred to the atmosphere in order to reach thermal equilibrium. The author remarks that “Few people appreciate thermal inertia and its consequences. I expect future generations to suffer the consequences for that lack of appreciation or caring.” The oceans have absorbed about 90% of the additional heat created from greenhouse gases caused by human activity. Thermal equilibrium between the ocean and atmosphere will take decades to occur:
Global warming hasn’t paused, it’s accelerating, especially in the oceans, according to a new study published online in the journal Geophysical Research Letters (GRL)…
…The scientists found that over the past decade, while surface air temperatures have not risen very much, there has been a warming of the deep oceans that is unprecedented over the past 50 years. They also found acceleration in the overall warming of the Earth. Consistent with previous research, they concluded, “In the last decade, about 30 percent of the warming has occurred below 700 meters, contributing significantly to an acceleration of the warming trend.” [Surprising Depth to Global Warming’s Effects]…
…The authors suggest that more heat is being transferred to the deep ocean layers, due to changes in wind patterns associated with an ocean cycle called the Pacific Decadal Oscillation. However, as Kevin Trenberth explained, this process is only temporary. Sooner or later the warming at the surface will accelerate once again, he said, adding, “…it contributes to the overall warming of the deep ocean that has to occur for the system to equilibrate. It speeds that process up. It means less short-term warming at the surface, but at the expense of a greater, earlier, long-term warming, and faster sea-level rise.”…
When the ocean cycles change state again, these models tell us that we can expect to see a rapid warming of temperatures at the surface. Another study published just this month in the journal Nature Climate Change has concluded that accelerated ocean warming can explain the slowed surface-air warming in recent years. Lead author Virginie Guemas noted, “If it is only related to natural variability then the rate of warming will increase soon.”
Contrary to claims that global warming has paused, the overall warming of the Earth has accelerated over the past decade. While we have experienced a respite in warming at the surface, it is a temporary one which will eventually be replaced by a rapid warming of surface air temperatures…
When we combine the temperature increase of a future loss in global dimming or the aerosol effect as well as the thermal equilibrium being eventually reached between the oceans and atmosphere, a large amount of global warming is in the pipeline to further strengthen current positive feedback loops and deepen the environmental collapse. Blanchard’s paper goes on to discusses the reasons behind the U.S. natural gas bubble which also apply to fracked oil wells.
– financial problems related to the recent glut in drilling which will affect future gas extraction projects
– the most productive shale gas deposits are peaking already
– the most productive shale gas deposits are being exploited first, leaving lower quality reservoirs as the remaining untapped places (low EROEI or EROI)
In 2007,roughly 9 percent of gross domestic product (GDP) was spent to purchase the energy used by the U.S. economy to produce the goods and services that comprised the GDP. Over recent decades that ratio has varied between 5 and 14 percent. The abrupt rise and subsequent decline in the proportion of the GDP spent for energy was seen during the “oil shocks” of the 1970s, in mid-2008, and again in 2011. Each of these increases in the price of oil relative to GDP had large impacts on discretionary spending—that is, on the amount of income that people can spend on what they want versus what they need. An increase in energy cost from 5 to 10 or even 14 percent of GDP would come mainly out of the 25 percent or so of the economy that usually goes to discretionary spending. Thus changes in the amount we spend on energy (much of which goes overseas) have very large impacts on the U.S. economy since most discretionary spending is domestic. This is why each significant increase in the price of oil (and of energy generally) has been associated with an economic recession, and it suggests that declining EROI will take an increasing economic toll in the future. – source
So I’m wondering what energy and finance resources our children and grandchildren will have left to fix the ecological wasteland we are leaving behind, if such a clean-up were even possible. There will be no clean-up, let alone mining of asteroids. The Skagit River bridge collapse, one of 69,000 structurally deficient bridges which haven’t been updated in decades, is just the latest sign of America’s neglected and crumbling infrastructure. Money printing cannot go on forever in a world of depleting energy.
Modern economic growth is based on systematically carrying out all three of the following:
- Using up renewable resources faster than they can be replenished.
- Generating wastes faster than the environment can absorb them.
- Exhausting non-renewable resources.
Any system predicated on these actions will not survive indefinitely.
The short term profit-seeking, Darwinian paradigm of capitalism will abdicate to nature the responsibility of dealing with pollution and ecocide and resource depletion; nature will exact its revenge by culling the human population through wars, famine, disease, and eco-collapse. According to the tenants of capitalism, only the fittest will survive. This fear in the unwashed masses of a coming societal collapse and nature’s retribution is based on reality and is a primary source for the obsession with future dystopian societies and post-apocalyptic stories in American pop culture.
Hi xraymike
Useful to remember that, that the ocean / air temp will want to balance out, etc.
I found this quite interesting, partly for the way the guy thinks, that mentality, partly for comments
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/businessdesk/2013/05/the-odds-of-disaster-an-econom-1.html
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I love the ending of that article…
“The bottom line is that if we continue on a business-as-usual trajectory, there is some non-trivial probability of a catastrophic climate outcome materializing at some future time. Prudence would seem to dictate taking action to cut back greenhouse gas emissions significantly. If we don’t start buying into this insurance policy soon, the human race could end up being very sorry should a future climate catastrophe rear its ugly head.”
As you know, the slow motion catastrophe is already playing out and cannot be stopped at this point. You can’t unscramble an omelet.
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Excuse me if I don’t respond until the morning. I’m going to rest.
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A great summary about the challenges ahead. I believe that we have just seen the tip of the iceberg for what climate change has in store for us. Earth is trying to reach a new equilibrium with the amount of energy it can store now with 100 ppm more in the atmosphere compared to pre industrial times.
I have always found it odd that we are so focused on surface temperatures as that really isn’t as important as the amount of new energy that earth now has as a whole – including the oceans. Surface temperatures has naturally become a favourite denier tactic, basically repeating previous periods where you can draw a line that shows no warming – the escalator as it has been called:
http://www.skepticalscience.com/graphics.php?g=47
No doubt when the next major El Niña starts to draw some of that immense heat in the oceans out we will see surface temperatures soar and most likely some major weather incidents. I wonder how many “stair steps” we need to take before we take this issue seriously. The world doesnt seem to take notice at all – so focused on economic growth and wealth bases on fossil fuels that I doubt there is anything we can do anymore to reduce the impact of climate change at all. My hope is that big organisations like 350.org and others can get the signal through all the noise. At least when we do experience the next major catastrophe related to climate change we can hope more people open their eyes to the fact that a lot of people are trying to warn us about this and have been for several decades now.
In spite of this, the inertia of the physical heat stored in the oceans will play its course and we get to see it all on the front row seats.
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Hi John Christian,
If you listen to Tad Patzek, it will take tens of thousands of years to reach a new equilibrium.
Imo, 350.org is a complete waste of time. What IS the point ? There is no chance at all of a return to 350, let alone pre-industrial 280, and even if we COULD get to 350, so what ? That does NOT get us our climate back.
It’s con trick which will just lead to a whole lot of very unhappy disillusioned and disappointed young people, when they discover they have been fooled. That actually makes me more angry than the ignorance of the outright deniers.
The effects we have now – the loss of summer Arctic ice, etc – are the result of emissions 30 years ago. Emissions have continued rising ever since. That means that the Arctic ice is gone, finished, never coming back, along with much else.
It took a huge amount of heat to melt all that ice. Now, all that heat goes into heating the Arctic sea water. Also, instead of the ice reflecting heat back out into space, that extra heat will now be also absorbed as well. So that means an irreversible runaway feedback heating effect for the foreseeable future.
Imo, the idea that we can do ANYTHING to fix any of this, is ridiculous. That feedback is just one of at least ten.
Almost every day there is a press release warning of terrible consequences unless
‘urgent action is taken’. But nobody ever says what this action should be, or how it would fix the problem.
That’s because nobody knows what to do. There isn’t any action that CAN be taken. There’s lots of people with fantasy ‘solutions’. That’s all.
The time when effective action could have been taken was three or four decades ago. Now, even if all emissions stop, by magic, today, we still get to about 4 deg C in a few decades. That’s catastrophic.
Emissions are not going to stop by magic. Emissions are following the IPPC ‘worst possible case’, and that graph doesn’t even include the really bad stuff like methane and melting permafrost and loss of Arctic ice.
People will say I’m being negative. Sure, I’m the Angel of Death. We’re on the brink of a mass extinction event. I’m facing it. Nobody else seems willing to. What’s the point in pretending and telling lies to one’s self and to others ? That doesn’t help or change anything, does it.
You start of by saying ‘the challenges ahead’. What are those, I wonder ? To survive ? To survive as long as possible ?
I wonder why. Why will anybody want to experience what is coming ?
There is no happy ending to this story. The worst possible thing that could happen, is happening. Most people pretend it’s not so. I can’t do that.
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So you believe we should just burn it all and just go out with a bang while we are at it?
I am well aware that we have started a train that will take thousands of years to stop. But I am not convinced at how quickly the effects will pan out until I see some real peer reviewed research that concludes with mass extinction. Understandably we don’t have a lot of that yet because we are just trying to get to grips with how fast the Arctic is going compared to the models. No doubt there are huge unknowns here – but we don’t need to replace those unknowns immediately with “mass extinction”.
Somehow I believe its our duty to keep informing that we need to at least brace ourselves for the coming changes. Although the 350 in 350.org is an unachievable dream, I still believe their message is important to get into peoples heads. That we are the cause of the havoc we are experiencing and will be at an amplified rate in the future. I am not sure about the “solutions” either, but at least I think we should try to make the best out of it no matter how dire the prospects might be looking.
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No, I didn’t say anything about ‘burning it all’. I don’t have any power over the policy choices, do I, or the choices that the 7 billion make. All i can do is give my personal assessment of the reality.
I think we should do everything we possible can to crash industrial civilisation, but that’s not because I think it will make any difference to the outcome, that’s because of the ethics, and my own beliefs and principles.
I don’t see it as being anything like a train. A train is the wrong metaphor. it’s a simple linear system, with momentum. The global biosphere and the climate is far more complex.
The peer reviewed science is mostly a waste of time. By the time they have finally got all the details sussed there won’t be anyone around left to care. We ALREADY know as much as we need to know.
You can doubt extinction if you wish. Makes no difference to me, does it. What you gonna do, when you finally get a peer reviewed paper published in Nature that says there’s no doubt at all, 95% probability of mass extinction by year X ? Personally o think your position is absurd.
Look, if the global average temp goes to 4 deg C, its not going to STOP, climate chaos continues for centuries, ocean acidification continues for centuries, sea level rise continues for centuries, etc. The global ecology every where is devastated, some areas have much greater increases than 4 deg C. Total devastation of everything.
Dead oceans, dead forests, radioactive wastelands, no oxygen, no food chains, etc = extinction event. Shouldn’t need a peer reviewed paper in a journal. Just read up on previous extinction events, caused by much slower, milder changes.
Yes, I used to think there was a moral duty to inform people. In the last few weeks, I’ve changed my view. Others will keep on doing it, but I don’t see the point any more.
No, I think your position re 350.org is shameful. “I still believe their message is important to get into peoples heads.” You mean keep on telling lies ? Look, if it’s important to inform people, and I accept that there is a moral case to be made… you know, “Why didn’t anybody tell me ?”… THEN please TELL THE TRUTH.
Look, there is no international plan or agreed procedure of any sort in place for cutting emissions. There is no possibility of cutting emissions. The exact opposite is the plan. All countries, Gvts., corporations, are intending to grow there economies if they can, increasing. We’re expecting population increase equivalent to two Chinas.
I’m all in favour of looking at the peer reviewed science and the hard numbers. What does the picture look like ? Well, the reality out there has shown over the past two or three decades that the science has ALWAYS under estimated the speed of the changes.
Just three or four years ago, ‘climate experts’ were saying the models predicted Arctic free of summer ice around 2100.
I think we get 4 deg C by 2050. If we get a methane spike we get something much worse much quicker, 4 deg C by 2020.
It really doesn’t matter whether I’m right or wrong about these times or these numbers. Unless you have children and worry about their future. Whatever the exact precise temp and the exact precise year is, there is NO WAY OUT.
We cannot unwind or reverse or undo this thing.
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So you have basically given up? Ofc with that as a basis everything becomes absurd, whether we try to do anything with it or not. So why do we even talk about these things at all, why this blog? If there wont be any system around later to be able to read them the information is really lost and time is better spent elsewhere.
I am not so sure that all hope is lost for the planet, but it all depends on how fast we get methane emissions and so far I havent read any real figures to what we can expect there. Assuming worst case for this as well and I can understand your position. I guess since I do have kids and a family to care about I want to figure out what’s even possible to do. At the moment the only way is to voice the facts about climate change and trying to get people to grasp the science at all. There is just a lot of people going around in denial now and starting with “we are all doomed” is not going to get us anywhere and certainly wont get the people in denial to accept it.
On the other hand if you assume that the world is going to pieces, perhaps just being silent about it will postpone the chaos when the serious changes to the biosphere is too big to be ignored anymore. No doubt a lot of people will be come maniacs in such a world where there really is no hope (“The Road” scenario).
Still I like to cling to hope in any situation as it gives life a meaning besides just waiting for ragnarok.
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I think there is simply a lot of angst over the fact that the system or super structure I described in my previous post has a mind of its own and rolls onward with the inertia of a large dinosaur. Only a fraction of one percent of the population knows how dire the situation is and nothing changes.
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There is nowhere in that vast mega-machine where anybody can make any change, is there.
If you are a CEO or on the board of BP or Exxon you don’t have any choice. For one, there’s a legal obligation to maximise profits. But if some rogue individual decided that it was unethical to sacrifice future generations and the destroy the biosphere and wreck the climate, and wanted to change company policy, they’d be instantly expelled.
There are hundreds of millions of dollars invested in these corporations that produce millions of dollars every day. The people who benefit won’t permit any obstruction to that cashflow. Anybody who interferes is replaced, if necessary they have a fatal accident.
They don’t take any notice of McKibben or Hansen, they don’t take any notice of Obama, the big banks and the big corporations are the most powerful entities on Earth, and there is no power that can restrict or regulate or abolish them.
They’ll keep on mining the ore and extracting the coal and oil, and scooping all the fish out of the ocean, so long as they can. Who or what is going to stop them ? There’d have to be a binding and enforceable international legal agreement. There has never been any success in that area really, not even with nuclear disarmament.
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It is even worse than that, as these same monsters, these amoral corporations, own the media. They manipulate and own the minds of most people. No chance of a revolution. Easy to begin to see the frustration of Ted K.
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Yes. I recall, I once mapped out all the connections from a tobacco farm in Zimbabwe. People think it’s a patch of land and a farmer. They don’t see the cobweb, the link to the tractors made in Japan, that are advertised in magazines laid out in Hong King and printed in Taiwan, the processing machinery built in USA, transported in ships built in China crewed by Filipinos, the advertising for ‘the brand’, produced in New York, spun out through the world’s tv networks and billboards and newspapers, on and on it goes, everything connected to everything else, like the mycorrhiza of a fungus, all around the planet, this massive network of commercial interconnections, and if you break it or chop through it in one place, it just re-routes itself, like the internet… And at the top, there’s just a few really big powerful organisations, Barclays, HSBC, etc
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Yep, and if you study who sits on the boards of all the big banks, the big fossil fuel corps, the big media conglomerates, Monsanto and Cargill, you see the same names popping up, over and over, the prime example being Henry Kissinger.
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No, I have not given up, I fight until my last breath, but for different reasons.
The battle is lost. That does not mean that I lay down and surrender. I fight because it is the only right thing to do, and I wish to retain my own self-respect.
“Ofc with that as a basis everything becomes absurd, whether we try to do anything with it or not. So why do we even talk about these things at all, why this blog? If there wont be any system around later to be able to read them the information is really lost….”
Yes. For those who understand, it means an immense and profound existential crisis. There are, as yet, only a handful of such people. Guy, and a small number of other names on NBL.
It’s only AFTER going through that, which is horrendous, that one begins to see a bit more clearly…
“…and time is better spent elsewhere.”
Hahaha. Doing what ?
“I am not so sure that all hope is lost for the planet,”
Be clear. This is not about the planet. The planet will be fine. This is about the biosphere, that thin skin of living stuff in the surface of the rocky planet, and human civilisation.
Human civilisation is going, and so are most of the animals and plants. Then things go very quiet. In about ten millions years, it’ll all be busy again with a new kind of ecology, with completely new life forms.
It’s not the first time it’s happened. The only difference is that this tome it’s our fault, we caused it.
Re methane, there is much uncertainty. Worst case, something like, we get 12 deg C by 2030
“I guess since I do have kids and a family to care about I want to figure out what’s even possible to do. At the moment the only way is to voice the facts about climate change and trying to get people to grasp the science at all. There is just a lot of people going around in denial now and starting with “we are all doomed” is not going to get us anywhere and certainly wont get the people in denial to accept it.”
Well, I feel for you, but I don’t pull any punches. SOMEBODY has to start being honest about this stuff. I’m more than happy for ANYBODY to attack me and show me where I’m wrong and find fault, because I’ve been doing this, every day now, for a few years, and I’m like a fair ground bare knuckle fighter who takes on all comers.
Look, I’m really really sorry. I don’t know what to say to you about your children, this is just horrible. I don’t want to hurt you. But my own heart has already been ripped out.
What is the point in getting ANYBODY to accept it, if there is nothing that CAN be done ?
I don’t know where you live, but in UK, there’s 60 million people. They are all eating oil. They can’t stop. Stop the oil, to get to something like a sustainable number means a drop of population to something like 15 million. It’s just not do-able, either voluntarily or by force.
So there is no political solution. There is no technological solution either. Alt tech cannot supply anything near the present energy demands. And UK is a tiny fraction of the total problem anyway, insignificant, it needs global international agreement, which is impossible, and anyway, as I’ve already said, it’s too late to avoid major disaster.
What you do about this, how you respond, is of course up to you. It’s a very personal thing.
If, as I am outlining, there’s nothing much at all that can be done to change the course of events, then do whatever you want to do, I suppose. I would like to save as much habitat and as many species for as long as possible, so if there is any chance at all, they are still around for a bit longer, even though it is probably pointless. As much a matter of habit, as anything, not even rational.
If you feel people should be woken up, wake them up. But then they have this ghastly horror to face. As I see it, all human culture gets broken by this, all religion, philosophy, all beliefs, all assumptions, everything that a person thinks, gets broken. It is truly terrible.
Then what ? If you don’t commit suicide – and I didn’t – then what ?
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There is no denying the emerging and third world their rights to a first world lifestyle but it isn’t going to be possible if those who already enjoy those benefits hold on to them and expect even more. The wealth will need to be shared or I suggest you redraft your last paragraph “we will continue to use substantial amounts of fossil fuels well into the future, as everyone else is sacrificed for the comforts, conveniences and desires of Americans”.
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Any nation crazy enough to think they are going to get out of this unscathed is delusional. If the human race is to survive, massive changes are going to have to be made including one option of going back to a vastly simpler lifestyle that is more locally based. Globalisation will be looked upon as another ism that failed. Business as usual is not a viable option and whether it was going to be climate change or limits to growth we are about to face our own existential crisis but we are going about it as if it is a lifestyle choice. Collective madness abounds and the earth doesn’t care if we stay or go since other predominant forms of life will step into our shoes as has happened in previous extinctions. Whether they are cockroaches or bacteria I suspect they won’t destroy the planet as we are destined to, unless saved by a last minute change of heart in the next few decades.
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Don’t forget that gasses dissolve less in warm water than in cold water. Therefore, (unless the natural chemical mechanisms for removal of HCO3- or CO3= go into ‘hyperdrive’, and I cannot see how that can happen) as ocean temperatures rise they will absorb less CO2 from the atmosphere. If the oceans become saturated with CO2 and the temperature rises the oceans will become net exporters of CO2 to the atmosphere, thereby increasing the greenhouse effect.
For the past 8 years or so I have been saying that to desequester the carbon that nature spent hundreds of millions of years sequestering is the height of insanity.
‘Nobody’ hears.
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Mike, how do we send material directly to you?
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collapsitarians@gmail.com
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Just the acidification of the oceans alone would probably be enough to cause an extinction event, without the global warming.
As you said, kevin, the oceans have been taking up CO2, and a lot gets taken down from the surface, right down to the sea floor where it can travel along forhundreds or thousands of years before it rises up again on another part of the planet, where it will emerge as acidic and release CO2, whatever.
Yes. There was a GOOD REASON why all that carbon was buried, sequestered deep in the geological strata.
I’d like to know why anybody thinks that it matters that humans become extinct. I mean, they are the most disgusting, irresponsible, loathsome, hubristic, self-regarding, ignorant creatures imaginable. Good riddance, from the point of view of every other living being on this planet.
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I had missed this
Greer v. McPherson
http://www.reddit.com/r/ranprieur/comments/1ek91l/greer_takes_on_mcpherson/
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Ran Prieur is as clueless as most:
“Ran has reacted to this thread:
And I have yet to see an actual argument for climate change causing human extinction. Instead it’s always something like this: 1) Valid science about atmospheric CO2 causing rising sea levels and desertification and superstorms. 2) Vague hand-waving. 3) Every last human dies.”
http://www.reddit.com/r/ranprieur/comments/1ek91l/greer_takes_on_mcpherson/ca4ru98
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Yes, pitiful and pathetic fluff. I was amused by the Wrong Genre Savvy though, Someone has done a media studies course. That’s postmodernism for you 🙂 An archdruid wanders into a science lab and misunderstands the plot 🙂 Cut and paste comic book culture and history.
Ran has never understood biology and ecology, never understood animals and plants and nature. He’s a video games guy really, and the world around him is just another sort of video game.
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This is from Slate:
After Cold Winter, Some Americans Decide Climate Change Is a Hoax After All
“March was pretty cold this year, and you know what that means: Global warming is a hoax!
OK, that isn’t actually what it means. But for a depressingly significant number of Americans, the nippy weather was apparently reason enough to decide that climate change isn’t a real thing after all. Yale’s latest survey of public opinion on climate change found that the percentage of Americans who believe global warming is happening has dropped to 63 percent from 70 percent just last fall. ”
http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/05/09/yale_climate_change_survey_after_cold_winter_public_opinion_on_global_warming.html
As much as any dire predictions from climate scientists, the stupidity of the average human about the issue is enough to tell me we are headed for disaster, that even a little bit of an awakening or turnaround is impossible.
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Yes, it is dismal, isn’t it.
Partly the incompetence of the scientists at communicating, mostly the useless media, also the corruption and disinfo by the Kochs and Exxon, and then the general dumbed down ignorance of the population.
But even amongst the informed, they think ‘climate change’ means ‘it gets warmer’, which is simplistic nonsense.
What it means is, we have wrecked the system, and we get a new chaotic erratic unpredictable period of extreme weather events, extending indefinitely into the future, where we discover what that means… Lots of very nasty surprises.
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Anybody know of other reports coming from Age of Limits ?
http://www.collapsingintoconsciousness.com/age-of-limits-conference-day-2-really-smart-people/#more-2383
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I have seen nothing of significance, just reports of who was speaking, singing etc.
We will have to wait till Guy McPherson gets back online for anything of substance, I suspect.
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And we know how society dealt with this guy…
“Following Greer’s presentation, Albert Bates lectured on the Unibomber, Ted Kaczynski, who wrote scurrilously and prolifically from a Luddite perspective about industrial civilization and its technological evils. Bates sees Kaczynski’s “Manifesto” as one of the most prescient and insightful documents ever published on the collapse of industrial civilization.”
http://peakoil.com/generalideas/carolyn-baker-blogging-from-the-aol
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The Age of Limits Conference coverage…
Best so far is from Doomstead Diner:
5/23…http://www.doomsteaddiner.org/blog/2013/05/23/age-of-limits-2013/
5/24…http://www.doomsteaddiner.org/blog/2013/05/24/musings-from-the-age-of-limits/ (updated daily)
Gail of Wit’s End is there and will likely return with her impressions in words & pictures aplenty.
Here’s hoping for some extensive quality video this year.
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Fascinating details on the MK-ultra program
“I was very surprised to learn that the Unibomber was not only a Harvard student at fifteen, he was also recruited by the MK-ultra program and the abuses he was subjected to at the hands of the experimenters may have played a part in his radicalization. After the background information on Ted, the presentation moved onto the famous manifesto; a document well worth reading from a collapse and resource depletion standpoint. I many ways the bomber was right on target with the problem of technology, although no amount of hindsight on his motives can justify the murders this terrorist perpetrated on innocent people.”
The mental walls with which industrial civilization has condemned people may have been broken down for Ted Kaczynski with the unintended help of the MK-ultra program.
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“I’VE RECENTLY BEEN reading the collected writings of Theodore Kaczynski. I’m worried that it may change my life. Some books do that, from time to time, and this is beginning to shape up as one of them.” Paul Kingsnorth
From his recent “Dark Ecology” in Orion magazine…
http://www.orionmagazine.org/index.php/articles/article/7277
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Hmmm…
“…The Harvard study my brother participated in was called “Multiform Assessments of Personality Development Among Gifted College Men.” It was overseen by the noted psychologist Henry Murray, who during WWII worked for the OSS (which later became the CIA), where he developed methodologies for interrogating prisoners of war. In his professional life, Murray was known for his brilliance and his grandiosity. In his personal life, according to his biographer, he displayed sadistic tendencies. His research on college men bears a certain resemblance to his research on prisoners of war. He was quite a big wheel in his day, perhaps as well known and influential in military and government circles as he was in academia.
Were the so-called “Murray experiments” part of MK Ultra? It may be that no one living knows the answer to this question. We know that the experiments were highly unpleasant for my brother and for some others who participated. We know that the basic premise of the research was to study how bright college students would react to aggressive and highly stressful attacks on their beliefs and values….”
http://blog.timesunion.com/kaczynski/ted-and-the-cia-part-1/271/
How would they react if their belief system was broken down?.. Well, they would become what CIV views as radicals. The unfolding collapse will be breaking the belief systems of many people, but as long as they are enthralled by it(CIV), the ‘mega-machine’ rolls onward.
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I have researched all that stuff a long time ago, xraymike. Had some fairly direct insights into Ted K.’s world. Don’t know if you read my personal blog on NTE. My position is to have no belief system. It’s no use, of course, as far as changing the world is concerned.
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I’ll check it out. Can you please post the direct link to it…
It’s amazing how the mainstream culture commodifies, co-opts and ‘pop-culturizes’ everything, even the malcontents.
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Here’s the link
http://neartermextinction.ning.com/profiles/blogs/6613799:BlogPost:749
I wrote it when NTE was first set up. NBL comments had become something of a flame war, it’s a very difficult and emotive subject. I think Brad set up NTE partly to get me out of there, me being a big cause of the fighting.
Yes, I noticed, way back in the sixties, when hippy kids wore patched jeans as a sign of protest, the middle classes suddenly wore new jeans PRINTED to look as if they were patched. I was amazed. But this always happens. It constantly eats itself, leaves a trail of trash.
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Seems Ted should have opted for Leary & Alpert’s Psilocybin Project…also at Harvard & also in the early 60’s.
“Things are in the saddle and ride…”
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They were part of the same CIA project, Jacob. If you investigate, when CIA found out about Hoffman/Sandoz LSD, they pretty much took it over.
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Sorry, but specifically speaking of the Harvard “Psychedelic Club” (1960-1962), I have never read a single word about CIA involvement from any of the researchers or participants (Leary, Alpert, Aldous Huxley, John Spiegel, David McClelland, Ralph Metzner, Huston Smith, Allen Ginsberg & others).
I am aware that prior to 1960 Ken Kesey and Robert Hunter participated in the MKUltra LSD testing at Sanford as volunteer test subjects.
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Yes. I can agree, reading all that stuff, not a mention ever appeared. But it’s been well researched. Where do you think all that LSD suddenly came from ? Those guys all got it from other guys who got it from….
I’ll see if I can find you a reference, not sure I’ll succeed or how long I’ll look, it’s time for me to sleep.
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This is not the ref I had in mind, but if you have not seen before, may be of interest. Some I’d say is quite mistaken, re laurel canyon, they were into the music, some other details I’d argue different interpretations, you’re obviously already well informed, Jacob, and will have your own take.
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Holy shit…all those years…all those trips…all that music – and only a pawn of the CIA.
I feel so…used.
Come on man, nothing new there other than his ickean leap into conspiracyville. Most of that info is about 30 years old now…Acid Dreams is even online in pdf…http://wessexsolidarity.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/acid_dreams.pdf
It begins with this quote…
“We do not see things as they are, we see them as we are”
Where did I think all that LSD suddenly came from? There was nothing sudden about it and many of us knew exactly where it came from.
So…I still say Ted should have opted for the Psilocybin Project.
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Hahahaha, well there you go, you supplied the sort of reference I would have supplied for you…
The drug that connected so many of us to the
organic mystery of a vastly alive universe turns out to have been, at least in the
beginning, a secret CIA project to find a truth serum. It’s frightening to think that
CIA spooks have used LSD with electroshock and torture to get information out of
prisoners. It’s even more frightening that they have used it themselves to little
positive effect. Or perhaps not. It’s ironic and still scary to think that the CIA tried to
control the LSD experiment even though hundreds of thousands were turning on in
the heyday of the sixties. Neither the ironies nor the chilling implications stop here.
The authors have plowed through thousands of pages of declassified intelligence
material to reveal a complex tissue of connections between secret government
agencies and the academic world on the one hand, and between the Utopian hopes
of a generation and the machinations of those same agencies on the other. It’s a
riveting story that makes the most paranoid and outlandish theories of the sixties
seem insufficiently paranoid.
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Hey, btw Jacob, me, myself, I, opted for ALL those projects, clambering through the wilderness of mirrors, amazingly I survived somehow, and here I am on this mountain, something to celebrate in that, even as I contemplate NTE 🙂
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Jesus_Angleton
Albert Bates tweeted from Age of Limits “Guy McPherson’s rap can be described as Shock and Awe. Works even on hardened doomsday survivalist bunkers.” 🙂
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Guess what…..there is ONE sane member of Congress. Not much hope of his getting his way, but at least he tries.
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2013/05/26/2062301/whitehouse-there-is-only-one-leg-on-which-climate-change-denial-stands-money/?mobile=wt
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I like the analogy that Superman1 gave on how the Earth is dealing with all this trapped solar energy:
“The excess energy is going into heating the atmosphere, heating the deep ocean, endothermic processes like melting the Arctic cap and the ice sheets, etc.
It’s like a boxer who gives a few on the chin, then a few on the solar plexus, then a few on the ribs, to soften up the opponent before the final blow. That’s what Mother Nature is doing to the biosphere in diversifying the energy distribution.”
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Yes, Superman1 makes some great comments, got a lot of respect for him, Joe Romm not so much, particularly since he said that ‘we’, meaning humans, ‘have to save ourselves’, meaning we can jettison the rest of the biota. Which, for me, shows both the idiotic anthropocentrism that got us into this mess in the first place, and also a fundamental lack of understanding of how the biosphere works.
The only reason we had a stable climate on a liveable planet was because of the contributions of all the species. A few can be lost, and others compensate for their functions, but as more and more disappear eventually the whole system collapses. Known as the rivet-popping theory, from the analogy with an aircraft losing rivets.
Also he refuses to publish comments by McPherson, which seems cowardly and petty.
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Re what Paul said above ( there’s no ‘reply’, max limit ?)
Yep, and if you study who sits on the boards of all the big banks, the big fossil fuel corps, the big media conglomerates, Monsanto and Cargill, you see the same names popping up, over and over, the prime example being Henry Kissinger.
Yes, that’s very true, but I think there are also splits and rivalries, one hopes they might fight amongst themselves. For example, this insight into the banking cartels :
http://www.thenewamerican.com/economy/economics/item/15473-world-bank-insider-blows-whistle-on-corruption-federal-reserve
The New American ” published by American Opinion Publishing, a wholly owned subsidiary of The John Birch Society”, which I believe was founded by Daddy Koch.
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Did you know that less than 1% of the world’s transnational corporations, mostly banks, control the share of 40% of global businesses? Did you know that 0.001% of the world’s population (corresponding to roughly one pixel on your computer screen) controls assets worth $14.6 trillion — or over 20% of global annual GDP?
No need for a comment, is there. 🙂
http://roarmag.org/2013/01/corporate-power-transnational-institute-report/
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